English text of an interview with El Mundo to be published in Spanish.
Q. Why are you interested in Egyptian political situation?
A. Egypt is a tremendously important country for the region, geo-politically, economically, and, for Muslims, religiously. Which way things go in Egypt, it is likely that the rest of the region will follow. The situation in Egypt impacts the situation in Palestine, and the situation throughout North Africa.
Egypt is important also as a the sort of birthplace of modern political Islam, so again, the present and future of Egypt has great significance to the project of Islamism.
The dramatic upheaval of the last 4 years has obviously created a major crisis in the country. The forces of global capital are utilizing this crisis to push through neoliberal reforms against the interests of the population.
As was detailed brilliantly by Naomi Klein in her book “the Shock Doctrine”, the neoliberal program benefits from the creation of crisis. Under these sorts of conditions, policies can be pushed through which people would otherwise reject, and yes, that is exactly what is happening in Egypt now. On the other hand, the same conditions can also create a kind of momentum and urgency for activists to organize and confront the power structure more actively than they might do when there is normalcy. It is my hope that a new Islamism can be born from this crisis which is more focused on the real needs of the population, and more informed about economic policies.
The danger is that, without an effective strategy, and a positive channel for rebels to direct their anger and energy, under crisis conditions, people may become radicalized and turn to violence. This is something I have been warning about for more than a year, and trying to prevent.
Q. During last year and a half we saw a brutal crackdown in Egypt. Is there any solution?
A. If there was any doubt in anyone’s mind about whether or not the overthrow of Muhammad Mursi was a coup, then, yes, the subsequent behavior of the regime has certainly proved that it was. Sisi has followed step by step the standard historical practice of military dictators before him, who overthrew democratically elected governments.
Obviously, this includes a ban on public dissent, an assault on civil society, mass arrests, criminalization of political alternatives, and more or less implementation of laws by decree. There is no way to impose dictatorship without violence.
The solution, in my opinion, is to recruit the support of the private sector; foreign investors and multinational corporations, to demand that they take a stand against dictatorship, and make their investments contingent upon the government’s respect for civil liberties, human rights, and the will and aspirations of the people. If global capital chooses to support justice before profit, any government will inevitably have to obey.
Q. Who is behind the military coup?
A. Well, of course the short answer is that the military is behind it. The Egyptian army has a massive stake in the economy, and they have realized for years that neoliberalism could not be resisted; and this posed a serious threat to their financial interests. The army’s approximately $140 million worth of economic power pales in comparison to the multinational juggernauts that control trillions of dollars.
Under a civilian government, the army’s assets could have potentially faced privatization, or their enterprises could have been forced to compete with international companies, and so on. So the coup was a business decision by the military to manage the neoliberal process while protecting their own private interests.
So, that is the short answer. But it is in the context of the inevitability of the neoliberalization of Egypt, which is a process imposed by the forces of international business. The government of Mursi was willing to follow the neoliberal path, and global capital gave them a chance to do so, for a brief period. However, Mursi, like Mubarak before him, understood that many of the socioeconomic changes that neoliberalism demands would create massive opposition, so he hoped to implement the policies gradually. Too gradually, it seems; and frankly, I believe that this is the primary reason the military stepped in.
Q. Since January there is a spike in acts of sabotage against foreign investment companies and multinationals in the country. In your opinion, what’s happening?
A. The revolutionary youth have recognized the role played by multinationals and foreign investors in the overthrow of their government. To some extent, I think, the speed with which Sisi has imposed the neoliberal reforms contributed a great deal to this realization. One of the first things he did was to enact a ban on third party challenges to the activities of foreign investors. The third party in this scenario refers to the population. So it became apparent to the activists on the ground that Sisi was serving a foreign constituency, and that this constituency was the international business community.
They have also recognized the incomparable power of multinationals and foreign investors, and realized that they certainly have the power to change their government (since, they apparently changed it at least once already).
So, I think they have concluded that targeting business is a way to force companies to withdraw their support for Sisi, and potentially enlist their support for establishing a legitimate government.
Q. Is possible the fall of Sisi? What should be the strategy to get it?
A. In my opinion, Sisi is not actually the issue. Sisi is simply fulfilling his institutional role in what is essentially an imperialist-style system. It is certainly possible that he can be removed and replaced, because as an individual, he is more or less irrelevant. He is not a particularly bright man. During his “campaign” for the presidency, some of the things that came out of his mouth could leave you in tears of laughter. So it is conceivable that the imperial system will opt for someone who is more efficient and less obviously a buffoon; but that will depend on his ability to fulfill his institutional role of imposing the dictates of global capital.
What I hope is that the revolutionary youth will not only be able to prove that Sisi cannot fulfill this role, but that they will prove that no one can fulfill it. I hope that they will be able to convince the international business community that the only way they can hope to have a profitable presence in Egypt, is if they withdraw from state policymaking, and respect Egypt’s political sovereignty
Q. Is there any third way among peaceful demonstrations and violence?
A. That is what I have been trying to suggest for over a year now. As I said, the crisis situation in Egypt is very dire. Frustration among the population is intense. The Islamist parties have utterly failed to respond to the crisis with any meaningful strategies of opposition. The peaceful demonstrations have been primarily expressive demonstrations, not disruptive.
They have had little or no impact on the power structure, and have only depleted the human resources of the opposition, as people get arrested, injured or killed, week by week. This has had a very negative impact on the morale of the opposition, and the demonstrations have been getting consistently smaller over the past year.
At the same time, violent activities in the Sinai, and the high profile rhetoric of groups like ISIS, have started to resonate with the frustrated youth, and there is a real danger that the path of civil war may be taken.
In my opinion, a more confrontational and disruptive form of civil disobedience can be the third way, by targeting corporate interests. Rebels can utilize methods pioneered by the early labor movement in the US and elsewhere, to undermine the profitability and operational efficiency of multinationals, to impose accountability on them for their support for the coup, and to try to democratize their influence, in exchange for a return to profitability.
Q. You have a huge number of followers in Egypt. What is the feedback? What do you say to them?
A. The feedback from people in Egypt, young people, activists, is quite positive. Among the traditional Islamist leadership, it is less so. The Islamist activists on the ground, remember, are largely disconnected from their party leaders, because their leaders are either in jail or in exile. So this has given them a certain degree of independence to explore ideas and strategies on their own, and there has been an interest in the things I talk about.
The ideas that I advocate sort of refute the conventional hierarchical leadership structure of the Islamist parties, and to some extent, the leadership views that as a threat to their position, which requires the obedience of their members, even when the leadership’s ideas may not be effective. So the response of the Islamist establishment has been much less enthusiastic, sometimes even hostile.
For the most part what I write about has to do with the realities of corporate domination in Egypt and the impact that neoliberal policies have on the society. I discuss ownership chains of companies, the significance of share values, and so on, and suggest non-violent confrontational tactics for causing disruption to profitability, but really, it is impossible for me to quantify any influence my ideas have. I have no direct contact with anyone who is actively involved in the revolutionary struggle.
Q. In few weeks the regime will hold an investment conference in Sharm al-Sheikh. Would be the event a good target?
A. It is not feasible to target the event itself. The government is holding it in Sharm el-Sheikh precisely so that they can ensure that no protesters can access it.
Revolutionary youth have made some attempts to derail the conference prior to the event itself, by targeting multinationals here and there, and trying to deliver a message to investors that Egypt is not a secure place for them to invest their capital as long as the government is illegitimate, and I think that is probably the only way the conference could be derailed.
At this point, I don’t think the conference can be cancelled, what we can hope for is just that it will fail to meet Sisi’s expectations.
Q. Are you optimist regarding the future of the country?
A. Of course. In the absence of justice, all we have is the hope for justice; so we are hopeful. I think to some extent, the revolution has turned a corner and it cannot go back. The youth have recognized the role of international capital, and I think from now on, activists from across the spectrum of the opposition will continue to focus on this element of the power structure, and that is a great leap forward.